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Post by Pepe Silvia on Mar 19, 2024 9:52:31 GMT -6
As an FBB veteran of 13 real life years, I have seen my share of sim leagues come and go. There are many different things that can be done in a league to make it more interesting for the league members. This league has things like camps, D-League, GMOTY, casino etc. All of these things are tools to keep GMs interested and active. Many times outsiders will join who have different sim experience and can offer a fresh look at what makes FBB great and keeps us coming back for more.
Something that is not unique to ITP is the difficulty in building around bigs who score, and trying to find ones who can score with efficiency. There are a few factors that contribute the lack of viability for an inside offense. At the time of writing, there is exactly 1 big (Brad Daugherty) in the top 10 for FG% in the league. Conversely, in real life, there are 2 wings or guards in the top 30 (SGA and Kawhi Leonard). So why the discrepancy between sim and rl? First, shot blocking. There are currently 107 big in the league with 60 or over in shot blocking. In order to make bigs and inside offense viable, shot blocking needs to be curbed. It is one of the largest growth attributes for bigs, and greatly inhibits inside scoring. A player with over 60 shot blocking should be a rarity, not the norm. What would I do? Fixing this would be a long term project, with rookies starting with lower blocking (rarely over 50) and reducing veteran shot blocking as players become free agents (you cannot hurt someone already under contract) reducing potentially as much as 20% or capping free agent shot blocking at something like 75 for veterans. In a previous league, inside scoring was also capped for guards at 65 (point guards) and 70 (shooting guards), rather than 85. Point guards and shooting guards can become especially dominant if they have high inside scoring coupled with elite outside scoring grades. Decreasing wing efficiency along with bumping shot blocking down will see an increased viability for bigs.
Another fix that I think is needed is D-League. We see players coming out of D-League getting upgrades that greatly exceed those that non-D-Leaguers are afforded. I have no problem with some D-Leaguers becoming viable starters, even stars, but they are growing at a rapid pace compared to their peers, to the point where picks 10-19 become obsolete because they aren't D-League eligible, and they aren't good enough to compete with those players post upgrades. Petteri Kopponen, Robert Traylor, Jelani McCoy, Rudy Fernandez, and Kyrylo Fesenko are better than or out performing the likes of Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Kobe Bryant, and many other household NBA names. In a lottery league, if you miss on a top 5 pick it can set you back many seasons, especially if the likes of the Pacers, Raptors, and Knicks are able to re-load through D-League. D-Leaguers shouldn't be allowed to exceed upgrade caps with D-League points, and should also have their overall point earnings capped. Perhaps D-League can also be expanded to picks 11-19 also.
These are two of the biggest changes I'd like to see in the league for reasons of competitive balance, and making team building a bit more dynamic instead of just hunting for the best wings. I have enjoyed my first couple months in the league, and look forward to what the future brings.
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Post by Keyser Soze on Mar 19, 2024 10:48:57 GMT -6
There's a reason why the NBA FG % leaderboard tends to be flooded with bigs. The modern NBA big is only shooting the ball off lobs and put backs. Give the ball to Dereck Lively on the block. See what happens to his FG %. Feed the ball to Nic Claxton in the post all game see what happens to his FG %.
So unless you can re program the game to have bigs only shoot the easiest of shots you're not gonna make it like real life. So to try to eliminate shotblocking seems like a forced and unnecessary idea.
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Post by Pepe Silvia on Mar 19, 2024 10:51:55 GMT -6
There's a reason why the NBA FG % leaderboard tends to be flooded with bigs. The modern NBA big is only shooting the ball off lobs and put backs. Give the ball to Dereck Lively on the block. See what happens to his FG %. Feed the ball to Nic Claxton in the post all game see what happens to his FG %. So unless you can re program the game to have bigs only shoot the easiest of shots you're not gonna make it like real life. So to try to eliminate shotblocking seems like a forced and unnecessary idea. It's almost like I've seen it work over 30 simmed seasons in a different league pretty easily. Shot blocking is extremely inflated in fbb.
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Post by Pepe Silvia on Mar 19, 2024 10:54:27 GMT -6
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Post by Keyser Soze on Mar 19, 2024 11:00:10 GMT -6
Congratulations on all your experiences.
And as you see can see from the names over the last 12 years or so. Tyson Chandler, Gobert, Capela, Deandre, Mitch, Gafford. What was their offensive role? Lob threats.
You go further back and then you enter the state of no spacing. Which is not what we have in today's ITP. Today everybody has outside shooting. So modern NBA would be the better comparison.
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majic44
HIgh School Starter
Posts: 370
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Post by majic44 on Mar 19, 2024 11:03:14 GMT -6
There's a reason why the NBA FG % leaderboard tends to be flooded with bigs. The modern NBA big is only shooting the ball off lobs and put backs. Give the ball to Dereck Lively on the block. See what happens to his FG %. Feed the ball to Nic Claxton in the post all game see what happens to his FG %. So unless you can re program the game to have bigs only shoot the easiest of shots you're not gonna make it like real life. So to try to eliminate shotblocking seems like a forced and unnecessary idea. As druce already said, we had two separate leagues that ran for 40+ seasons that utilized the suggested cap limits and it allowed for variety within the league. Bigs were usable and successful, inside and oustide offenses could be used and the overall scoring was balanced. It is possible that other people have good suggestions that can better a league.. wild I know.
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Post by John1974 on Mar 19, 2024 11:07:28 GMT -6
The problem with the game, and especially the version I have is that a lot of the flaws were never fixed. Some were in updated versions but the game will always favor SF, SG, and PG positions over the others. That's a design flaw but it is what it is so we deal with that, like losing bird rights if you decline a resign offer. We made some of the flaws part of the game, and nerfed playing SF at starting SG/PG as thats another exploit in the game. Bigs in order to have just 1bpg have to be around 50 rating otherwise they wont hit 1.0 bpg and your also not going to see a big with high jumping. We also nerfed the D league a bit with created players and that is just starting to show as grandfathered in players are moved on from camping, etc. I dont want to change the D league much as I like were its at but like the created player nerf I might in the future not allow any player with 80 or above potential as that's A level potential and 1st round top tier talent even if they slide down the draft. other than that I like the D league and how its working.
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Post by Pepe Silvia on Mar 19, 2024 11:07:52 GMT -6
Congratulations on all your experiences. And as you see can see from the names over the last 12 years or so. Tyson Chandler, Gobert, Capela, Deandre, Mitch, Gafford. What was their offensive role? Lob threats. You go further back and then you enter the state of no spacing. Which is not what we have in today's ITP. Today everybody has outside shooting. So modern NBA would be the better comparison. I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. Players shooting closer to the basket score more efficiently via 2 point FGA, outside shooters make up for this with the ability to shoot a 3. When the outside shooters are also dominating from 2 pt range, it adversely effects the bigs and their usefulness. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, wings shouldn't lead the league in shoot percentage because they take more shots further away from the basket. You're saying compare to modern NBA. Ok, cool, all the fg% leaders are bigs. Lob threats, put backs, dunks, it doesn't matter, they score more efficiently from 2.
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Post by John1974 on Mar 19, 2024 11:09:38 GMT -6
oh and I would add another thing is 99% of the league runs outside shooting. I only have done this last 2 versions of ITP I used to run Inside offense and win Titles but we had a very inflated first couple versions of the league.
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Post by Pepe Silvia on Mar 19, 2024 11:12:10 GMT -6
The problem with the game, and especially the version I have is that a lot of the flaws were never fixed. Some were in updated versions but the game will always favor SF, SG, and PG positions over the others. That's a design flaw but it is what it is so we deal with that, like losing bird rights if you decline a resign offer. We made some of the flaws part of the game, and nerfed playing SF at starting SG/PG as thats another exploit in the game. Bigs in order to have just 1bpg have to be around 50 rating otherwise they wont hit 1.0 bpg and your also not going to see a big with high jumping. We also nerfed the D league a bit with created players and that is just starting to show as grandfathered in players are moved on from camping, etc. I dont want to change the D league much as I like were its at but like the created player nerf I might in the future not allow any player with 80 or above potential as that's A level potential and 1st round top tier talent even if they slide down the draft. other than that I like the D league and how its working. So test it, run a season sim with the shot blocking grades reduced by 20% and see what the leaders look like. You can't just blame everything on the game when it can be fixed with ratings. Jumping does very little to effect shot blocking numbers. This has all been tested over 100 sim seasons by my old league commissioner. I'm not entirely sure how you can like how the D League is working when the best young players are coming from there rather than the top of the draft (outside this most recent draft with 5 nba legends).
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Post by Keyser Soze on Mar 19, 2024 11:20:00 GMT -6
Congratulations on all your experiences. And as you see can see from the names over the last 12 years or so. Tyson Chandler, Gobert, Capela, Deandre, Mitch, Gafford. What was their offensive role? Lob threats. You go further back and then you enter the state of no spacing. Which is not what we have in today's ITP. Today everybody has outside shooting. So modern NBA would be the better comparison. I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. Players shooting closer to the basket score more efficiently via 2 point FGA, outside shooters make up for this with the ability to shoot a 3. When the outside shooters are also dominating from 2 pt range, it adversely effects the bigs and their usefulness. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, wings shouldn't lead the league in shoot percentage because they take more shots further away from the basket. You're saying compare to modern NBA. Ok, cool, all the fg% leaders are bigs. Lob threats, put backs, dunks, it doesn't matter, they score more efficiently from 2. they don’t score more efficiently because it’s a 2 pointer. They score more efficiently because the 2 Pointer is uncontested. But when defense is involved. That 2 pointer becomes less efficient than a wide open 3. The average NBA shooter taking an open 3 or Rudy Gobert tossing up a hook shot. Who you got? that’s what happens when defense is involved. And in this game defense is always Involved, because everything is a matchup of 1 on 1s. So there’s no lobs. There’s no pick n rolls. You gotta score with your back to the basket. There’s not a lot of great inside scoring in this league. There’s substantially more outside scoring. So the Fg leaderboard will favor them.
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Post by John1974 on Mar 19, 2024 11:24:36 GMT -6
I wasnt blaming everthing on the game but I guess you took it that way. Ive been running, playing in leagues for over 20 years with this game. Its fair from perfect and some of the game issues we deal with so it makes my life easier at sims. IE: Bird rights, less camping (used to be no limit.) no trading MLE, LLE. those things save me tons of time and will not change. Little changes as I mentioned to D league will happen as we go, but I see no reason to nerf bigs when they are already limited based on the games bias towards guards. In fact I think bigs need more blocking (but we have camps, potential, so id rather not increase the options there.) Smith on my team has 59 blocking and averages 1.1bpg in 30.5mpg. Landry has 45 blocking rating and averages .6bpg in 30plus minutes.
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Post by Keyser Soze on Mar 19, 2024 11:27:12 GMT -6
There's a reason why the NBA FG % leaderboard tends to be flooded with bigs. The modern NBA big is only shooting the ball off lobs and put backs. Give the ball to Dereck Lively on the block. See what happens to his FG %. Feed the ball to Nic Claxton in the post all game see what happens to his FG %. So unless you can re program the game to have bigs only shoot the easiest of shots you're not gonna make it like real life. So to try to eliminate shotblocking seems like a forced and unnecessary idea. As druce already said, we had two separate leagues that ran for 40+ seasons that utilized the suggested cap limits and it allowed for variety within the league. Bigs were usable and successful, inside and oustide offenses could be used and the overall scoring was balanced. It is possible that other people have good suggestions that can better a league.. wild I know. Who else used to be in this league?
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majic44
HIgh School Starter
Posts: 370
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Post by majic44 on Mar 19, 2024 11:28:53 GMT -6
I honestly do not understand how you guys can argue "hypotheticals" against the empirical proof that we have had over 100's of sim seasons (some tested seasons, some real seasons).
Making the cap changes can have a positive affect and allow for more variance in play styles, there is literal proof of that and we could literally share it.
Also fact, Inside Scoring and Shot Blocking dominate the software. Limit the caps on both of these attributes for the corresponding positions and I guarantee you will see a more balanced league.
Again, I do not think Druce (or anyone) is coming from a bad place and we genuinely would like to see the league adapt some of the things that made our older leagues great. Outside perspective can be a good thing for nearly anything in life, sim league especially.
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majic44
HIgh School Starter
Posts: 370
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Post by majic44 on Mar 19, 2024 11:30:54 GMT -6
As druce already said, we had two separate leagues that ran for 40+ seasons that utilized the suggested cap limits and it allowed for variety within the league. Bigs were usable and successful, inside and oustide offenses could be used and the overall scoring was balanced. It is possible that other people have good suggestions that can better a league.. wild I know. Who else used to be in this league? Myself, Druce, Sapular and Timpig all were in a league together for several years.
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majic44
HIgh School Starter
Posts: 370
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Post by majic44 on Mar 19, 2024 11:33:09 GMT -6
I wasnt blaming everthing on the game but I guess you took it that way. Ive been running, playing in leagues for over 20 years with this game. Its fair from perfect and some of the game issues we deal with so it makes my life easier at sims. IE: Bird rights, less camping (used to be no limit.) no trading MLE, LLE. those things save me tons of time and will not change. Little changes as I mentioned to D league will happen as we go, but I see no reason to nerf bigs when they are already limited based on the games bias towards guards. In fact I think bigs need more blocking (but we have camps, potential, so id rather not increase the options there.) Smith on my team has 59 blocking and averages 1.1bpg in 30.5mpg. Landry has 45 blocking rating and averages .6bpg in 30plus minutes. I 100% agree, and support, the idea of making things easier for a commissioner. I could never do that job and understand it is mostly a thankless job. I also think some of the suggestions we are making would make things easier, but that's more of my opinion. Druce shared some of it with you when we initially joined the league, but out old Commish built a ton of macros that would/could automate alot of the tedious parts of the job for you. A great example is a DC macro that he built and used that didn't require him to enter every DC manually. Something that you might be interested in circling back on at some point as I think it could really help.
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Post by Pepe Silvia on Mar 19, 2024 11:51:04 GMT -6
I wasnt blaming everthing on the game but I guess you took it that way. Ive been running, playing in leagues for over 20 years with this game. Its fair from perfect and some of the game issues we deal with so it makes my life easier at sims. IE: Bird rights, less camping (used to be no limit.) no trading MLE, LLE. those things save me tons of time and will not change. Little changes as I mentioned to D league will happen as we go, but I see no reason to nerf bigs when they are already limited based on the games bias towards guards. In fact I think bigs need more blocking (but we have camps, potential, so id rather not increase the options there.) Smith on my team has 59 blocking and averages 1.1bpg in 30.5mpg. Landry has 45 blocking rating and averages .6bpg in 30plus minutes. You’re missing my entire point if you think lowering shot blocking is nerfing bigs. Lowering shot blocking makes them more useful as you can actually count on them to shoot over 45%.
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Post by lionsbryan on Mar 19, 2024 11:52:42 GMT -6
This is an interesting argument. I'll play devil's advocate here and suggest that the biggest reason we don't have many superstar inside-oriented post scorers is because nobody works on them. I went down the file and there are only three post players in the league who are over 90 inside and under 30 years of age: Hines, Hawkins and Daugherty. That's it. The league is littered with young post players who haven't been camped properly.
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Post by John1974 on Mar 19, 2024 11:53:30 GMT -6
I completely disagree.
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majic44
HIgh School Starter
Posts: 370
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Post by majic44 on Mar 19, 2024 12:01:32 GMT -6
This is an interesting argument. I'll play devil's advocate here and suggest that the biggest reason we don't have many superstar inside-oriented post scorers is because nobody works on them. I went down the file and there are only three post players in the league who are over 90 inside and under 30 years of age: Hines, Hawkins and Daugherty. That's it. The league is littered with young post players who haven't been camped properly. This speaks to the larger point, bigs are not worth upgrading at inside because the blocking numbers are too strong. Its more ideal to have a non shooting (low inside) big that gets rebounds and blocks. Reducing blocking then allows for bigs to be more efficient, thus giving the league more balance. Teams can then decide whether to utilize an outside offense and spend on their wings, or use inside and develop guys there. Otherwise, every team will utlimitely look the exact same, which is what happened in one of our leagues before we set on the path for creating the cap limits to create more balance....... *whispers* and it worked: simleague.host/TMBSL6/3025/rosters.htmLook through some of the big stats from that page and tell me it cant work.
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