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Post by jfemino on Jul 21, 2009 9:31:59 GMT -6
Since I have never owned a copy of FBB, I have never had a chance to play around with certain things. Does anyone know if height/weight has an impact on the game engine or is it just there for aesthetics?
For instance, is a guy who is 6'8" playing center going to be penalized when he goes up against a guy who is 7'1" either in terms of lower skills or increased fouling or whatever? Or is it just about the offense vs. defensive skills of the player and the size doesn't matter?
It would go for the little guys as well, could a guy who is 5'11" play SG (i.e. Dana Barros) without getting crushed on defense?
I know in some sim games, OOTP for instance, height and weight is just there for aesthetic purposes, I wasn't sure if it was the same here or if it is actually meaningful.
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Post by John1974 on Jul 21, 2009 9:38:07 GMT -6
Dont think so I thnk its all based off ratings.
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Post by donrnets on Jul 21, 2009 9:47:35 GMT -6
Dont think so I thnk its all based off ratings. I wrote an article based on evaluating rebounding of players. It did seem to me that the game did consider height in that skill. Unfortunately, I think the article is lost but it was the reason I made a trade for Bedford about two or three seasons back. . . .his ratings didn't support his rebounding productivity. . but it seemed his height aided him. . . I may have been stretching it a bit to conclude. . .ideal was over 7' and about 240 John says no. . .and he knows a whale of a lot more about the game than I do. . .so probably at best it is a maybe. |
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josh
2nd Rounder
1979 ITP Champs
Posts: 2,730
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Post by josh on Jul 21, 2009 11:53:09 GMT -6
Dont think so I thnk its all based off ratings. I wrote an article based on evaluating rebounding of players. It did seem to me that the game did consider height in that skill. Unfortunately, I think the article is lost but it was the reason I made a trade for Bedford about two or three seasons back. . . .his ratings didn't support his rebounding productivity. . but it seemed his height aided him. . . I may have been stretching it a bit to conclude. . .ideal was over 7' and about 240 John says no. . .and he knows a whale of a lot more about the game than I do. . .so probably at best it is a maybe. It's all based on ratings and height doesn't affect ratings at all. If you take a guy that is 6'0" in this sim and make him a center with great jumping, strength and rebounding numbers, and he'll rebound the ball very well, even playing with guys that are taller. For example, Buck Williams has averaged 11 rebounds per game for his career, while playing PF/C at 6'8" and going up against guys that are 6'11" and taller (especially with the predominance of the twin tower model in this league). It's really all about how ratings stack up. As for Barros...We'll see how he does at SG, because he'll be splitting time for me between PG and SG. I was in a league where a guy played a 4 PG lineup, and he won 50 games, with Jason Kidd anchoring the PF spot, and he averaged like 9 rebounds per game with C+ rebounding. |
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Post by jlafavor on Jul 21, 2009 11:57:05 GMT -6
probably a low turnover lineup.
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Post by jfemino on Jul 21, 2009 12:23:45 GMT -6
I wrote an article based on evaluating rebounding of players. It did seem to me that the game did consider height in that skill. Unfortunately, I think the article is lost but it was the reason I made a trade for Bedford about two or three seasons back. . . .his ratings didn't support his rebounding productivity. . but it seemed his height aided him. . . I may have been stretching it a bit to conclude. . .ideal was over 7' and about 240 John says no. . .and he knows a whale of a lot more about the game than I do. . .so probably at best it is a maybe. It's all based on ratings and height doesn't affect ratings at all. If you take a guy that is 6'0" in this sim and make him a center with great jumping, strength and rebounding numbers, and he'll rebound the ball very well, even playing with guys that are taller. For example, Buck Williams has averaged 11 rebounds per game for his career, while playing PF/C at 6'8" and going up against guys that are 6'11" and taller (especially with the predominance of the twin tower model in this league). It's really all about how ratings stack up. As for Barros...We'll see how he does at SG, because he'll be splitting time for me between PG and SG. I was in a league where a guy played a 4 PG lineup, and he won 50 games, with Jason Kidd anchoring the PF spot, and he averaged like 9 rebounds per game with C+ rebounding. Ok, I guess that makes sense. I might have been more likely to take Barros instead of Reid if I knew height had zero impact, but that is my own fault and I think Reid has the potential to be a solid backup anyhow. Plus, at least I know for the future. As a related follow up question then, do the strength/jumping/etc. type ratings factor into the main ratings (like IS and REB) or are they completely blind? |
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Post by jlafavor on Jul 21, 2009 12:38:27 GMT -6
im pretty sure they do, especially inside scoring, i remember hearing how dr j had a crazy jump rating which is why he had A- inside but could never score more than about 15 ppg.
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josh
2nd Rounder
1979 ITP Champs
Posts: 2,730
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Post by josh on Jul 21, 2009 12:42:52 GMT -6
Ok, I guess that makes sense. I might have been more likely to take Barros instead of Reid if I knew height had zero impact, but that is my own fault and I think Reid has the potential to be a solid backup anyhow. Plus, at least I know for the future. As a related follow up question then, do the strength/jumping/etc. type ratings factor into the main ratings (like IS and REB) or are they completely blind? Strength is a big part of inside scoring, both in the rating and in the actual scoring prowess of a player. The jumping rating boosts the inside scoring rating like crazy, but it doesn't make a person a better scorer. The Dr. J example is a perfect one, and there are others where you think "why does this guy only score 12 ppg even though he's B+ inside?" Jumping does boost a players rebounding rating as well, and I think it helps marginally, but the big determinants there are offensive and defensive rebounding, as well as strength. |
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Post by donrnets on Jul 21, 2009 14:08:58 GMT -6
I went to the FBB website and they have a FAQ:
Our question was posed and the Developer answered:
heavyreign
FBB Developer
Joined: 06 Aug 2001
Posts: 2406
Location: Spokane, WA
Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:59 pm Post subject: Are Height and Weight used in the game?
Height and Weight are both used in the calculations for inside play. Players with a height or weight advantage over their opponent will be more effective inside.
Back to top
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Post by New York Knicks on Jul 21, 2009 16:31:09 GMT -6
I had a feeling height mattered. Charles Barkley got amazing ratings and he's always been a bit of an underachiever. I guess it's because he's 6"6.
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josh
2nd Rounder
1979 ITP Champs
Posts: 2,730
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Post by josh on Jul 21, 2009 17:21:12 GMT -6
I went to the FBB website and they have a FAQ: Our question was posed and the Developer answered: heavyreign FBB Developer Joined: 06 Aug 2001 Posts: 2406 Location: Spokane, WA Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:59 pm Post subject: Are Height and Weight used in the game? Height and Weight are both used in the calculations for inside play. Players with a height or weight advantage over their opponent will be more effective inside. Back to top Here's the thing though...In the "new" version of the game, which came out in 2002, the year this question was answered, these two things were supposed to matter and factor in. The truth though, is that a guy that's 6'0" will have the exact same letter grades as a guy that is 7'0", assuming that all of the numerical ratings are identical. As for it having an impact in game, that's something that could be entirely random (as FBB tends to be), and impossible to track because the letter grades are the same, and as we know, tons of guys with identical grades play very differently. To FDA: Charles Barkley was made wrong and has played out of position for the majority of his career. FWIW, I've been in a few other leagues that have featured versions of Barkley that were accurate, and he was a top 3 player in the league in his prime years. We're talking 25+ points, 12+ rebounds, etc., and that was at 6'6". It's entirely possible that the developers wanted to incorporate this and either failed or it didn't have the desired affect, but I guarantee you that player ratings are not affected by height and weight, all other things remaining equal, and player performance in inherently random and very, very difficult to dissect in this way. |
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Post by donrnets on Jul 21, 2009 18:03:36 GMT -6
Because there is a random factor, and I think it is pretty large, it is difficult to say a given player X with all the same ratings as player Y will have exactly the same production. All other factors are never equal.
Those factors such as minutes played, the team played for, other players on the team, which conference, injuries on your team and your opponents team, and the schedule all affect results.
I question that you can offer objective evidence that contradicts what the developers of the game indicate is the case. It seems to me your "guarantee" is based on your opinion which while experienced doesn't compare to a pretty clear statement made by the designer of the game.
I don't know whether the random factors in the game are at 1%, 5% 10% or 20%. . . . and I suggest we don't know what the Ht/Wt calculation is affecting results by 1%, 5%, 10% or 20%.
. . .but it seems more logical to me to accept there is a calculation of some % on inside play. . .because that's what the man said.
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josh
2nd Rounder
1979 ITP Champs
Posts: 2,730
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Post by josh on Jul 21, 2009 19:46:54 GMT -6
Because there is a random factor, and I think it is pretty large, it is difficult to say a given player X with all the same ratings as player Y will have exactly the same production. All other factors are never equal. Those factors such as minutes played, the team played for, other players on the team, which conference, injuries on your team and your opponents team, and the schedule all affect results. I question that you can offer objective evidence that contradicts what the developers of the game indicate is the case. It seems to me your "guarantee" is based on your opinion which while experienced doesn't compare to a pretty clear statement made by the designer of the game.I don't know whether the random factors in the game are at 1%, 5% 10% or 20%. . . . and I suggest we don't know what the Ht/Wt calculation is affecting results by 1%, 5%, 10% or 20%. . . .but it seems more logical to me to accept there is a calculation of some % on inside play. . .because that's what the man said. God, Don, it's always something. I can offer you FACTUAL EVIDENCE that a player's letter grades WILL NOT CHANGE based on a simple height/weight adjustment. You can, if you desire, make a Center that is 5'3" that has ratings like a center, or a 7'2" PG that has ratings like a PG. They can weigh 100 pounds or 300 pounds, and IF ALL THE NUMERICAL RATINGS ARE IDENTICAL, THEIR LETTER GRADES WILL BE IDENTICAL. This is not my opinion, Don, this is a fact, something that I've learned through building numerous FBB draft classes, doing testing, etc. for how these things affect a player's build. Now again, my point was never to insinuate that players with identical ratings will perform the same. My point was exactly the opposite, which makes it absolutely impossible to say with certainty that height or weight matters a lot or not at all.I will also say that the developer of this game is pretty well known for not following up on things and really just letting the current version of the game (2002) slide. If you want to argue (again) with me on this, feel free, but I do hope that I have further cleared up my point in this thread... |
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Post by donrnets on Jul 21, 2009 20:06:59 GMT -6
There's no problem. . . .we simply disagree. . . .anyone who reads this post can view our disagreement, well talked out and reach their own conclusions.
Look at Hawk. . .used to be before this thread, he didn't know what to think. . .now he has a choice . . . .
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Post by don1955 on Jul 21, 2009 20:17:59 GMT -6
or he still might not know what to think  |
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Post by jlafavor on Jul 21, 2009 20:47:05 GMT -6
get the man a copy of the game so he can see that you can change the height and weight and it wont change their ratings a bit.
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Post by jlafavor on Jul 21, 2009 20:54:11 GMT -6
i wanted to test and see how it would run, i changed Dwight Howard to 5'0" 110 lbs, against the rockets (and yao ming) he only had 7 reb but 9 blocks. the next 4 games averaged 15 reb. it seems to have no impact at all in my short sample size.
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josh
2nd Rounder
1979 ITP Champs
Posts: 2,730
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Post by josh on Jul 21, 2009 22:32:28 GMT -6
i wanted to test and see how it would run, i changed Dwight Howard to 5'0" 110 lbs, against the rockets (and yao ming) he only had 7 reb but 9 blocks. the next 4 games averaged 15 reb. it seems to have no impact at all in my short sample size. This is consistent regardless of how many times you run sims... While there may have been the intention to make it a big deal, it clearly isn't... |
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Post by jlafavor on Jul 21, 2009 22:41:01 GMT -6
it is funny to think of a 5'0" 100 lb man blocking 9 shots of Yao Ming.
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Post by donrnets on Jul 24, 2009 12:40:22 GMT -6
The "game" Designer indicated that the calculation had to do with "inside play". . . .Blocks and Rebounds seem more to do with Defense and Rebounding.
Inside play would seem to be reflected in Scoring. . perhaps shooting percentages.
The game apparently allows you to create your own players. . .but when the game offers players (those they create). . . .I'm dubious you'll find a 5' player created. It seems an artificial player and perhaps because of that you encounter some bugs not anticipated.
I've not had the opportunity to examine a group of 7 foot players in our game. . . and compare the results with say 6'10" players with similar settings.
I would assume that a 7' player with a inside rating of A+ will have better scoring than a 6'10" player with a B rating. . . but what happens when both players. . . or two groups of players have the same inside rating?
It seemed to me that 7' players with B and C+ ratings had some pretty decent rebounding. . .
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