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Post by jlafavor on Mar 26, 2010 21:18:34 GMT -6
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nyk2013
Starting player
Blazers 2000 ITP CHAMPS
Posts: 8,860
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Post by nyk2013 on Mar 26, 2010 21:26:42 GMT -6
I voted yes he was a big time scorer, 3pt scorer. A solid defender ast SF.
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Daboy
1st Rounder
1975 ITP Champs (ITP2), 1987 ITP Champs (ITP3), 1987 GMOTY
Posts: 6,600
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Post by Daboy on Mar 26, 2010 21:29:44 GMT -6
went yes with him last season, and im sticking to it
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Post by jlafavor on Mar 26, 2010 21:32:21 GMT -6
he was hardly a big time 3pt scorer, he was alright, but at 37% overall, its not HOF worthy. as with Bernard King, I think his scoring isn't impressive enough in our crazy scoring league. I also think over 3 turnovers per game is disheartening. i wont say never, but i still say no.
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Post by John1974 on Mar 26, 2010 21:36:58 GMT -6
Im a no on him, while I think he was better than King I just dont see him as a HOF'er
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Doogie
1st Rounder
Spurs GM...."Jusssssst a bit outside!"
Posts: 6,182
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Post by Doogie on Mar 26, 2010 22:06:18 GMT -6
No
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Post by yourkers15 on Mar 26, 2010 22:27:58 GMT -6
was no on him before and I am sticking with it.
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Post by scarface132 on Mar 26, 2010 23:03:07 GMT -6
I voted no.
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Post by arrestinu on Mar 26, 2010 23:16:23 GMT -6
I'm going with "yes" on Aguirre this year. I'm glad he stuck around on the ballot. I'll point out the things that I think sway me in Aguirre's favor:
He had 10 straight seasons of averaging no less than 21 points per game. No later career fade. He went out of the ITP as still being a highly effective scorer. He played in the era, that has been hashed over quite a bit, in which it was very difficult to get league award recognition at the SF position. I guess it just jumps out at me more this season that this guy didn't collapse at the end of his career and taint it. That is what I see when I look at Bernard King, that sharp decline. Aguirre appears to have been as consistent as you could ask for.
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josh
2nd Rounder
1979 ITP Champs
Posts: 2,730
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Post by josh on Mar 26, 2010 23:21:06 GMT -6
In fairness, Arrestinu, King scored 20.6 ppg in his last season, and averaged 23.3 the year before. He was only under 20ppg one season in his career, and his per 36 numbers that season were well above that.
My issue with Aguirre is that while he was a three time all star, he never made an all league team and never won a title. He averaged more career points than King, but did it on worse teams.
Aguirre is still a no from me.
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Post by arrestinu on Mar 26, 2010 23:23:39 GMT -6
Winning a title seems a bit of an unfair judgment, imo. These sim guys don't get to pick what team they play for (in a logical sense). How was he supposed to win a title with the Bucks?
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josh
2nd Rounder
1979 ITP Champs
Posts: 2,730
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Post by josh on Mar 26, 2010 23:25:03 GMT -6
Winning a title seems a bit of an unfair judgment, imo. These sim guys don't get to pick what team they play for (in a logical sense). How was he supposed to win a title with the Bucks? I'm saying I appreciate stats more if they come from stacked teams. Aguirre played for teams that largely were bad, so his career numbers are inflated against a guy who played for some teams that had more talent around. That's all I'm saying.
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Post by arrestinu on Mar 26, 2010 23:28:24 GMT -6
Winning a title seems a bit of an unfair judgment, imo. These sim guys don't get to pick what team they play for (in a logical sense). How was he supposed to win a title with the Bucks? I'm saying I appreciate stats more if they come from stacked teams. Aguirre played for teams that largely were bad, so his career numbers are inflated against a guy who played for some teams that had more talent around. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. I understand. But devil's advocate on the stacked team theory.........will you have better numbers when Steve Nash is passing you the ball, or when Chris Duhon is passing you the ball? My point is simply that being the only go-to guy on a crappy team doesn't diminish the accomplishment of putting up numbers. In some cases, it may hinder the opportunity to do so. And you're certainly right on King. I wasn't really accurate on King's demise that I stated. I was going from memory without looking at his stats again. Not a good idea with my memory. lol I guess with King though, his numbers just don't look near as consistent to me as Aguirre's. And King only played 8 seasons, which seems like too small a sample size perhaps. Aguirre's stats look every bit as good as Nique's to me. If you were to print them out and lay them side by side without a name at the top, it may be surprising who one would guess was whom. Then again, should we even be comparing King and Aguirre at all? They played 2 different positions. I know some said King may have been a SF at one time, but I know he was mainly a SG since at at least 87-88.
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josh
2nd Rounder
1979 ITP Champs
Posts: 2,730
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Post by josh on Mar 26, 2010 23:35:23 GMT -6
I'm saying I appreciate stats more if they come from stacked teams. Aguirre played for teams that largely were bad, so his career numbers are inflated against a guy who played for some teams that had more talent around. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. I understand that. And you're right. I wasn't really accurate on King's demise that I stated. I was going from memory without looking at his stats again. Not a good idea with my memory. lol I guess with King though, his numbers just don't look near as consistent to me as Aguirre's. And King only played 8 seasons, which seems like too small a sample size perhaps. Aguirre's stats look every bit as good as Nique's to me. If you were to print them out and lay them side by side without a name at the top, it may be surprising who one would guess was whom. It would be. Aguirre's career numbers are better than either Nique's or King's. My issue with Aguirre is the lack of any postseason recognition and the fact that he compiled stats on teams that weren't great. A huge part of this voting for me is "did this guy play a big role on a very good or great team?" All of the guys nominated were consistent performers who put up numbers, but not all of them did it on the highest level. For instance: Bernard King averaged 28 ppg his first season along with 6 rpg and 4 apg. He took over that whole season, winning all-league 2nd team honors. He also took over in the playoffs and absolutely torched the heavily favored Bulls in a sweep in the finals. That to me is a big part of what makes a guy a HOFer. That's something that can't be said about any part of Aguirre's career.
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Post by arrestinu on Mar 27, 2010 0:02:34 GMT -6
For instance: Bernard King averaged 28 ppg his first season along with 6 rpg and 4 apg. He took over that whole season, winning all-league 2nd team honors. He also took over in the playoffs and absolutely torched the heavily favored Bulls in a sweep in the finals. That to me is a big part of what makes a guy a HOFer. That's something that can't be said about any part of Aguirre's career. The only difficulty I see in that, is that there are a lot of GM's here that weren't around for that 84 season, and can't have an idea of what weight to put to it in their decision. So that's a tough one. As for Aguirre, I just think it's a tough evaluation to consider that he doesn't have a ring. He never even had the chance to do what King did, taking over a finals series. His numbers indicate he'd have been just as likely as King to do that, so how can we count it against him that his crappy teams never even gave him the chance? I understand what you're saying, but we just look at it from a different angle. To me, it's like saying Dan Marino is just a "very good" quarterback, when the fact is he was statistically one of the best ever. But, his teams pretty much sucked due to poor team management. Trent Dilfer has a ring that Marino doesn't, and I think we all know what weight that should have. Anyway, it's fun to debate and discuss. ;D
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Post by jlafavor on Mar 27, 2010 0:35:56 GMT -6
the counter to the dan marino argument is that aguirre isnt putting up that good of numbers. say in 5 years michael jordan retires having never won a championship, sucking it up in both of his finals appearances, he will make the hall no question because he will have marino numbers. aguirre has good numbers, but not great numbers.
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Post by jr on Mar 27, 2010 7:27:15 GMT -6
I voted no. He looks like a solid guy but not HOF at this juncture.
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ciggy20
College Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,472
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Post by ciggy20 on Mar 27, 2010 11:14:42 GMT -6
No
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Post by don1955 on Mar 27, 2010 14:15:33 GMT -6
gonna say no...
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Post by gritter13 on Mar 28, 2010 11:31:03 GMT -6
A no for me with him.
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