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Post by donrnets on Jun 19, 2009 19:03:13 GMT -6
I'm a bit confused about Cliff Robinson. . . .is this a different Cliff then the player on the Kings? If so fine. . but if not he needs to be scratched.
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Post by joshbounds on Jun 19, 2009 19:10:54 GMT -6
Yes, one Cliff T Robinson is the one in the league now, he played 1979-1991 for the Bullets and 76'ers. He was solid and averaged between 15-20 ppg. Cliff R. Robinson is the one we all remember from the Drexler and Porter Blazers team. He averaged right at 15 ppg and was 6th man of the year and an All-Star as well and he came out in this draft and was a steal for the Blazers in the 2nd round at Pick #36.
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Post by yourkers15 on Jun 20, 2009 3:09:32 GMT -6
i like how most look, but i have an idea for these 3
Sean Elliot C+ B+ C+ B+ C+ B
Elliot was a pretty good scorer, but he wasnt to great at 3s but his free throws were in the 80s so i think a B+ should be good. He was not a big rebounder so a B- would of been to high.
Glen Rice B B+ C B+ C+ A
I kow Rice will be a stud, but we did hold off DRod some, if we really wanted to, we could of made him as close to what this draft class showed him to be. So I think a B- makes more sense, and later in his career he became a good 3 point shooter so a high B+ would do the job. Also he was a pretty high T/O guy and didnt rack up much assists so a C is what I would go with.
Nick Anderson B B- C A- C A
Anderson was never that good of a shooter, plus he was poor at the line so an A- would seem to be way to high. He also should not be close to a scorer that Rice was so i like a B high B- or a B could work.
and actually relooking over Hardaway it should be
B- B+ A A- C- A
his 3point shooting was not to special, but he did get a good amount of steals. So it would make more sense of B+ in his shot and A- in his D.
just my thoughts
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josh
2nd Rounder
1979 ITP Champs
Posts: 2,730
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Post by josh on Jun 20, 2009 14:10:45 GMT -6
Alright...I'm gonna give some thoughts on the class. In my opinion, a lot of the ratings that have been talked about so far are too high, especially given the high potential that the top guys will have.
Vlade Divac - 11.8 ppg career average, a career high of 16 ppg. There is absolutely no reason why he should start with B+/C+ offense. B/C would be just fine, because based on JBounds' suggestion, he looks better than David Robinson did coming out. Vlade also averaged 8.2 rpg for his career, with a career high of 10.8. B rebounding to start would be fine. Vlade also averaged 1.1 steals and 1.4 blocks per game career, so he doesn't need outrageous defensive numbers to start out. I think Vlade should have really high potential and start with ratings that look like B C C A- B. After a TC, he could easily have B+ inside and/or rebounding, and that will continue to improve...My guess is that even if we start him out like that he'll outperform his NBA counterpart.
Shawn Kemp - is another guy that looks better right now than David Robinson did coming out...Shawn Kemp averaged 14.6 ppg for his career, and only averaged more than 20ppg once...Why should he start out with A- inside? Kemp's per 36 numbers look better, averaging 19/11, but I think at the moment he's inflated. I like Kemp looking like (low) B+ C- C- A- B+...That's not too far off from where everyone else seems to be at, but it's imperative that we lower his inside scoring.
Cliff Robinson - When this guy got starter minutes, he could ball. From 1992-1996, he averaged 19, 20, 21 and 21 ppg. The thing is, Cliff wasn't a tremendous defender (good, not tremendous), and he was a bad rebounder for the PF spot, only averaging 4.6 rpg. I see Robinson as this year's Charles Smith, but with a better outside shot. Ideal ratings for me would be B+ C+ C B+ C+ with good potential.
Sean Elliot - He should be OK, but not anything special. 14.2 career PPG, pretty good 3pt shooter, not a great passer, rebounder or defender. For Elliot, I would say ratings could be low C+ B+ C B- C with pretty good potential.
Glen Rice - Prolific scorer (when healthy), great 3pt shooter, average rebounder, ballhandler and defender. 18.3 career ppg, with a career high of 26.8 in 96-97. Career 40% 3pt shooter. For Glen I think he should be B A- C B C with good potential. Rice should be the elite scoring two guard in this class.
Nick Anderson - Solid player, could score and defend, good rebounder for the position. 14.4 career ppg, 5.1 career rpg. Anderson could have kind of interesting ratings, maybe something like B- B C A- C with good potential...That's pretty close to what's been talked about before.
BJ Armstrong - Hmmm...Can you say 3pt specialist? Only 3.3 apg and 5 assists per 36. Only 9.8 career ppg as well. For BJ, C A- B- B- D with good potential could be just fine. He's definitely not an elite player or a great PG.
Dana Barros - An interesting case. Averaged 20.6 ppg in 94-95, along with 7.5 apg and 1.8 spg. Other than that though, he was pretty steady, averaging just 10.5 ppg for his career, but 16.4 career points per 36. Barros was also a good 3pt shooter, with a 41% career 3pt shot. I think Barros could have C+ A- C+ B D+ with good potential.
Mookie Blaylock - Decent scorer, but a terrible Career FG%...40.9% for his career. Solid passer and a great ball handler, had a career high 9.7 apg in 93-94, but only averaged 6.7 apg for his career. Mookie's biggest strength is his defense, and I'm OK with him being a solid A from the jump. 2.3 career spg is amazing...I think Mookie could be C B B+ A C- and have very good potential. After a couple of TCs, Mookie should be one of the better defending and ball handling PGs in the league.
Tim Hardaway - Here is your elite PG in this class. 17.7 career ppg, 8.2 career apg. Hardaway could look good at B B A- A- C-...Pretty close to where other people have put him.
Pervis Ellison - Man...An enigma. Great player in college, was supposed to be great and just wasn't...14/10 career per 36 numbers, 2.3 blocks per 36. If we use those numbers, Ellison could be B C- C- A- B with some decent potential and we just see what happens with him.
Danny Ferry - Josh, I'm not really sure where you got A- defense and B+ rebounding for Ferry...The guy averaged 5.1 rebounds per 36 for his career, and just2.8 per game for his career, and was not a great defender, even in college. I think that Ferry should have really mediocre ratings and awesome potential, and just let the game do with him what it will. C C+ C- C+ C+ and like 100 potential. Maybe he busts in the ITP too, or maybe that potential takes him over the top and he becomes serviceable.
Stacey King - Another guy that currently looks better than DRob coming out...His career per game averages are atrocious, so I'll use per 36s for him...13.7 points, 7 rebounds and 1 block per 36. I look at King the same way I look at Ferry, maybe give him decent ratings and good potential and just see what the progression engine does with him. B- C- C- C+ C+ with good potential and see what happens.
J.R Reid - Another guy with just terrible career averages, so we can use per 36s again. 13.3 points, 7.9 rebounds, 1.2 steals career per 36 minutes. B- C- C- C+ B- for Reid, maybe give him decent potential and see what happens, but Reid shouldn't be even close to an elite player here.
George McCloud - 14.3 career points per 36 minutes, 4.8 rebounds and 3.7 assists. Terrible FG% - 40%, but McCloud was pretty versatile, and he could be another kind of fun experimental guy. B- C C+ B- C with good potential and see what happens.
Overall these ratings are a lot lower than what other people have come up with, but a lot of the ratings seemed very inflated to me.
Thoughts?
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Post by gritter13 on Jun 20, 2009 14:29:55 GMT -6
My thoughts on the draft would have to lean toward Josh (Jazz). Maybe some players don't have to be quite as low as he listed them, but Stacy King should definitely not have better ratings than Charles Oakley does right now. Oakley was 10 times the player Stacy King was.
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Post by New York Knicks on Jun 20, 2009 14:42:00 GMT -6
Jazz ratings look a lot more realistic
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Post by joshbounds on Jun 20, 2009 14:57:10 GMT -6
After Josh's Ideas all ratings are right at what Josh thought give or take .5 of a point. What do these numbers look like to everyone?
Vlade Divac B C C+ A- B A
Shawn Kemp B+ C- C A- B+ A
Cliff Robinson B+ C+ C B+ B- A
Sean Elliot C+ B+ C B C + B
Glen Rice B A- C+ B+ C+ A
Nick Anderson B- B+ C A- C+ A
BJ Armstrong C A- B B+ D B
Dana Barros C+ A- C+ B D+ B
Mookie Blaylock C B B+ A C- A
Tim Hardaway B B+ A A- C A
Pervis Ellison B C C A- B B
Danny Ferry C+ C+ C C+ C+ A (100 Pot)
Stacy King B- C- C- B- B- A
JR Reid B- C- C- B- B- B
George McCloud B- C B B- C B
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Post by gritter13 on Jun 20, 2009 17:00:39 GMT -6
I think those look pretty good. One other player that we may want to discuss is Pooh Richardson. For him to have A handles and A defense might be a bit much for him. I liked him as much as the next T-Wolves fan, but I don't think he was that good of a PG.
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Post by joshbounds on Jun 20, 2009 17:14:15 GMT -6
Added Pooh to the list for you Gritter and gave him a more realistic rating.
Vlade Divac B C C+ A- B A
Shawn Kemp B+ C- C A- B+ A
Cliff Robinson B+ C+ C B+ B- A
Sean Elliot C+ B+ C B+ C + B
Glen Rice B A- C+ B+ C+ A
Nick Anderson B- B+ C A- C+ A
BJ Armstrong C A- B B+ D B
Dana Barros C+ A- C+ B D+ B
Mookie Blaylock C B B+ A C- A
Tim Hardaway B B+ A A- C A
Pervis Ellison B C C A- B B
Danny Ferry C+ C+ C C+ C+ A (100 Pot)
Stacy King B- C- C- B- B- A
JR Reid B- C- C- B- B- B
George McCloud B- C B B- C B
Pooh Richardson C+ C+ B B+ D+ B
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Post by New York Knicks on Jun 20, 2009 18:45:39 GMT -6
How bout a B+ handle for pooh? He had 9apg his 2nd year in the league
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Post by yourkers15 on Jun 20, 2009 19:08:15 GMT -6
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Post by jacksonlee on Jun 21, 2009 1:30:03 GMT -6
Gives 19 varied options, 3 or 4 premier options, 3 or 4 good options, and 11 decent and project options. I like the ratings after all is said and done, good work. Plus there is still a few decent project players left in the pool too.
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Post by shawn1987 on Jun 21, 2009 1:52:55 GMT -6
Looks great, hopefully I wont be low enough to get any of those 19 but the class looks right all the way down to Danny Ferry's 100 in potential. But I am looking for pick #30 this season.
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Post by jfemino on Jun 21, 2009 2:37:44 GMT -6
Although Dino Radja didn't start playing in the NBA for a few more seasons, he was selected in the 2nd round in this draft. Shouldn't we include him as well?
Most of the changes look pretty good, but I don't know if I can get behind giving Michael Smith, a guy who started a whopping 10 games in his NBA career a B+ for inside. His FG% was only 16th for guys in his draft class and well behind Divac who only got a B. At best I would say Smith deserves a B.
If you want another B+ inside guy, Radja could certainly start out that way as he has the 3rd highest scoring average of his draft class and is second only to Ellison for FG% for guys who saw any meaningful playing time.
You could probably start Radja out at something like:
B+ C C B B B
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Post by joshbounds on Jun 21, 2009 10:28:52 GMT -6
After All Suggestions... I deleted the post above so the thread isnt cluttered..
Vlade Divac B C C+ A- B A
Shawn Kemp B+ C- C A- B+ A
Cliff Robinson B+ C+ C B+ B- A
Sean Elliot C+ B+ C B+ C + B
Glen Rice B A- C+ B+ C+ A
Nick Anderson B- B+ C A- C+ A
BJ Armstrong C A- B B+ D B
Dana Barros C+ A- C+ B D+ B
Mookie Blaylock C B B+ A C- A
Tim Hardaway B B+ A A- C A
Pervis Ellison B C C A- B B
Danny Ferry C+ C+ C C+ C+ A (100 Pot)
Stacy King B- C- C- B- B- A
JR Reid B- C- C- B- B- B
George McCloud B- C B B- C B
Pooh Richardson C+ C+ B+ B+ D+ B
Michael Smith B C C B- C+ C
Todd Litchi B C- C B C+ B
Byron Irving B- C+ C- B+ C+ B
Dino Radja B+ C C B B B
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Post by danny on Jun 21, 2009 18:08:58 GMT -6
I cannot say I am thrilled at the changes but it does give me a chance at 3 or 4 players really worth having. I approve but I wish you would pick at least 1 guy and make him A- inside from the start, there is not 1 guy with A- inside.
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josh
2nd Rounder
1979 ITP Champs
Posts: 2,730
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Post by josh on Jun 21, 2009 18:25:01 GMT -6
I cannot say I am thrilled at the changes but it does give me a chance at 3 or 4 players really worth having. I approve but I wish you would pick at least 1 guy and make him A- inside from the start, there is not 1 guy with A- inside. I dunno man, this class seems like it's going to be full of high potential guys, so the people that you draft should blossom into stars. I'm not a huge proponent of inflated rookie ratings, and if you look at a guy like David Robinson a couple years ago, he came out with B+ inside, and really, D Rob is the benchmark for me when looking at big men, at least until a guy like Shaq comes out. |
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Post by danny on Jun 21, 2009 18:41:24 GMT -6
I guess you are right. It is good you guys made it 20 deep with at least servicable guys.
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Post by etownconcretebys on Jun 21, 2009 18:46:32 GMT -6
I cannot say I am thrilled at the changes but it does give me a chance at 3 or 4 players really worth having. I approve but I wish you would pick at least 1 guy and make him A- inside from the start, there is not 1 guy with A- inside. I dunno man, this class seems like it's going to be full of high potential guys, so the people that you draft should blossom into stars. I'm not a huge proponent of inflated rookie ratings, and if you look at a guy like David Robinson a couple years ago, he came out with B+ inside, and really, D Rob is the benchmark for me when looking at big men, at least until a guy like Shaq comes out. I agree with this. The rookies still go thru TC before they step on the court so keep that in mind. Alot of Joshbounds suggestions seem a bit high. |
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Post by danny on Jun 21, 2009 19:04:02 GMT -6
Ya, his 1st ones did, but these above are revamped with Jazz Josh/Gritter/Youker/Hawks suggested starting ratings. They are very low compared to what Joshbounds suggested to start, my eyes got huge when I saw those.
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